John Howard OM AC SSI on Life & Leadership

Transcript

Introduction

Brett Kelly:
Well, ladies and gentlemen, it's a huge honour to welcome former Prime Minister John Howard to our blue chairs today to share with you some of his leadership wisdom. Prime Minister, thank you for making the time. I really appreciate it.

John Howard:
Great pleasure.

Brett Kelly:
It's very special to me because in 1997 I wrote a book where I had the privilege of interviewing a number of former Prime Ministers, but at the time, Mr Howard was the Prime Minister and he was busy running the country. So I managed to speak to John Gorton, Bob Hawke, and others, which was great. So I was very, very excited.

John Howard:
Gorton was an interesting man. He was somebody who, when he first became... I'm sorry, this is going off script, but when he first became Prime Minister, I thought the Liberal Party had made a mistake. And of course, he ended up having his problems with the party. But later on, when I became Prime Minister, he was one of the three former Prime Ministers who reached the age of 90. Only three of them. So that's a target. And yeah, him, Whitlam, and Billy Hughes. And I really grew to like him a hell of a lot. He was a Tory larrikin, probably had, without question, the most active war record of any former Prime Minister. Gough Whitlam too. Gough Whitlam was a navigator in the RAAF, and Stanley Melbourne Bruce had served at Gallipoli, not in the Australian Army, but in the British Army. So that's just a bit of trivia, but Gorton really appealed to me a lot.

Brett Kelly:
He's a very generous man. I found his phone number in the phone book.

John Howard:
Oh yeah.

Brett Kelly:
So I phoned him and he said, "Oh, come over." So we had an interview over a cup of tea with his wife, and they were lovely people.

John Howard:
Betty? No, no. That was his second wife. Betty was his first wife. She was American. I think they met in Spain during the Civil War. She came from Maryland in the States, but his second wife, lovely person, still alive. But Gorton was interesting. Anyway, that's beside the point.

Brett Kelly:
Now let’s start at the beginning. You grew up near Canterbury.

John Howard:
Earlwood, next door. I went to school at Canterbury.

Brett Kelly:
Yep. Canterbury Boys High, opposite Blick Park.

John Howard:
And not far from Canterbury Racecourse, not that I had any interest in horse racing.

Brett Kelly:
But as you grew up there as a young man, you loved cricket. I wanted to start with your love of cricket, which is well known, and ask you how did you take that love of cricket into your adult life and how did it influence your political career?

John Howard:
Well, I loved cricket because I was the youngest of a family of four boys, and we all played cricket. And because I was the youngest, I just imbibed it. And we all ended up at one stage with an uncle of ours playing in the local church team. There was a very strong church cricket competition, and I played for Earlwood Methodist, the church that I attended, which was associated with. We lived opposite the church in William Street, Earlwood. And we all liked cricket. And at one stage, there were five Howards in the cricket team. Golly. And my eldest brother was a very good leg break bowler. My second-oldest brother was a good wicketkeeper. They were a good combination, sort of stumped Howard, bowled Howard—lethal. The best I ever did was once getting 6 for 97, playing for Earlwood Methodist against Punchbowl Baptist at Tempe Reserve. And for people who know Sydney, Tempe Reserve is near the airport. I enjoyed that. When I was at high school, I played cricket. I only made the second 11, but I enjoyed it. Our home ground was Pratton Park, which was the old home ground of the Western Suburbs. Then I played a little bit of rugby league, but mainly rugby union. I also played soccer after school, for the local church, as there was a big soccer competition, and I enjoyed playing it. Although I follow rugby more closely now. I found soccer very interesting to play. I always played inside right, never inside left.

Brett Kelly:
Bad left foot?

John Howard:
No, no, no. 

Brett Kelly:
So you finished school, studied law?

John Howard:
Yeah, I went to Canterbury Boys High, and then I matriculated and went to Sydney University. I was thinking of doing an arts degree, then a law degree, but I decided... my hearing was bad. I was diagnosed with bad hearing when I was about nine. A doctor came around to Earlwood Primary School and told my parents. I didn’t pay attention to them, but they said, “Oh, we know that, yes.”

Where the political genes started

Brett Kelly:
And so where did the political genes start?

John Howard:
Oh, I think it probably was just the atmosphere at home. My parents were of the generation that my father fought in World War I. My father was born in 1896, and my mother in 1899. They grew up in what the Americans called the “Greatest Generation,” which I understand, because they came of age during the Depression and went to World War II. I think Australia was more heavily affected by World War I. It was astonishing that we had a population of only 5 million people then—2.5 million men and 2.5 million women—and of those 2.5 million men, 40% of those of enlistment age enlisted, which is extraordinary. My father went to World War I, as did his father. His father, in the last year of the war, put his age down. He was 44, but he told the recruitment people in October 1917 that he was 35. Let me tell you, in 1917 they weren’t looking at birth certificates very closely. They were just happy to have anyone. He was able-bodied, and he fought, got wounded, sent to Blighty (England), then home, and lived into his seventies. But my father was gassed at Menin Ridge in Belgium in 1917 and recovered, although it affected him, as that sort of thing does.

Brett Kelly:
And so what was the atmosphere at home that led you to a political career?

John Howard:
Well, they talked politics. My mother was very articulate, had a wonderful memory. Any ability I have to remember things, I owe to Mum. She had a wonderful memory and would talk about things that had happened. She grew up in one of the inner suburbs of Sydney, Petersham, in a very working-class background, but had strong views. My mother was a very devout, religious person—wonderful. We just talked politics at home. And because I had three older brothers, all of them were interested in politics. Mum and Dad weren’t the sort to say, “Oh, you mustn’t talk about politics or religion.” That old idea about avoiding such topics didn’t apply in our household, and I’m glad it didn’t. Mum and Dad were very nationalistic, very supportive of the monarchy, and had very strong views about who was good and who was bad. And I tended to agree with them.

Brett Kelly:
And were they members of a political party?

John Howard:
They were both members of the Liberal Party. I think my father would write a cheque at election time—not a big one—but he was openly Liberal. We used to have the Liberal magazine around the house, *Liberal Opinion* it was called back then. I don’t recall my father going to many meetings, as his health wasn’t great. He died when I was 16, at 59.

But Mum and Dad did disagree once on a big issue. There was a referendum. Remember those? We just had one recently, didn’t we? It was 1951, a referendum to ban the Communist Party. The Communist Party was seen as a threat because communists had gained control of major positions in some of the big unions. My father voted yes, but my mother voted no. She didn’t agree with the idea of banning it, although she never agreed with Dr. Bert Evatt’s reasoning. But Mum was staunch in her views. I remember they had a sharp argument about it one night, and Mum just said, “Well, I’m voting no, no matter what you think.”

Brett Kelly:
So you grew up in a household where ideas were discussed, and there was a contest of ideas, political engagement?

John Howard:
Oh, yeah.

Brett Kelly:
You joined the Liberal Party at what age?

John Howard:
I joined the Liberal Party when I left school. I left Canterbury High at the end of 1956, went to law school, and got very involved. There it is. But we were always encouraged to engage with ideas. I have three older brothers, two of whom are no longer with us. Both were strong Liberals. My surviving brother, whom I’m very close to, is a member of the Labor Party. But we don’t argue about it. We gave that up years ago.

Blood is thicker than water.

Brett Kelly:
Yeah, absolutely. And at what point did you first have the political ambition?

John Howard:
Oh, I think I had it when I was at school. But it’s something that’s just there. I remember in my last years at Canterbury High, we were asked, as every boy was, to write down the three occupations we might be interested in. I wrote lawyer, journalist, and detective. At that time, of course, I didn’t see politics as something you did as a profession, as something you went into after you’d been something else. I think now we have too many people who’ve spent their whole life in politics, working on a politician’s staff, in corporate relations, without really having much experience in the world.

But I just got interested. I ran for a state seat in Drummoyne in 1968. It was a marginal seat. I was meant to win, but I didn’t. I was defeated by Reg Cody, a well-liked local member, senior office bearer in the Brewers Union. He was a lovely guy, a hardworking local member. People weren’t going to tip him out for a young upstart. I was glad I lost, because had I won, I’d have only won by a few votes, and I’d have lost it the next time around.

Brett Kelly:
And when you were first elected to Federal Parliament, you were a relatively young man?

John Howard:
I was 34.

Brett Kelly:
What did it feel like? And when you look back now, can you believe the career you’ve had, given where you started?

John Howard:
Oh look, I was excited to get chosen as the Liberal candidate for Bennelong. Bennelong, which then comprised Lane Cove, Gladesville, Longerville, Northwood, and parts of Ryde, had been altered a lot. The southern boundary kept shifting, but it was a safe enough seat, and I thought, “Well, I should be able to win this.” And I did. I got a bit of a swing, and I managed to hold it for 33 years. But in the end, I was defeated due to a swing in Kevin Rudd’s favour in 2007. The boundaries had shifted, and when I lost areas like Longerville, Northwood, Lane Cove, it changed the complexion of the seat. But I was excited. Once I got there, I immersed myself. One advantage I had was being a keen debater at school, which helped me speak impromptu. I think people who read everything they say don’t engage their audience. You need to look people in the eye and talk to them.

Political Career Achievements 

Brett Kelly:
So the big things that you wanted to achieve in that political career, were they similar when you were first elected, and how did they change over time?

John Howard:
Some of them changed. I didn’t foresee when I was first elected the rise of terrorism. I was very conscious of the geo-strategic balance between the then Soviet-led communist world, augmented by communist China, and the American-led democratic world. I was aware of that, and I was very conscious of the importance of our relations with our near neighbours—Indonesia, China, the Philippines—and of course, we were still coming out of our involvement in the Vietnam War, which had dominated most political debate on foreign affairs in the years before I went into Parliament. So, I was very conscious, but later on, particularly after 9/11 when terrorism became such a central issue, whenever we talk about foreign policy now, the background story is terrorism and its different forms. I just read something in the paper this morning about some lunatics in Vienna talking about driving a truck with explosives into thousands of people attending a Taylor Swift concert, which is terrible.

And that sort of thing is a reminder of the changing world... Now, that wasn’t the backdrop back then. The backdrop was different. But the importance of alliances—I mean, I still regard our alliance with the US as being fundamental. We owe the Americans a great deal for what they did for us in World War II. And of course, it's always good to have the big guy on your side. I can’t understand how people run around saying, “Oh, you don’t need that.” And, of course, in those days, the Middle East didn’t dominate things as much.

Although one thing that hasn't changed is the refusal of most of the Arab countries to recognise Israel’s right to exist. I’ve always been a strong supporter of Israel because I admire... I’m very conscious, as everybody should be, of what the Nazis tried to do to the Jewish people in World War II. I mean, it's the foulest act in human history, to try and wipe a whole race from the face of the Earth, which they tried to do. And Israel has survived. It’s the only democracy in the Middle East.

No other country there even comes remotely close to being a democracy. And I think, I know this is very partisan, and I recognise the fact that a gathering like this may have people with different political views, but I think if the current government, led by Mr. Albanese, had really come down hard after October 7 and said, “This is completely unacceptable,” we wouldn’t have had this anti-Semitism. It’s a terrible thing. I know people who immigrated to Australia who lost parents and grandparents in the Holocaust, and they told me, for the first time since they came to Australia in the late '40s, they felt unsafe. Well, that’s just terrible.

Brett Kelly:
You went to Parliament in the mid-'70s. There was an oil crisis, a different geopolitical situation with the US and Russia. The Arab states had a lot of their oil controlled by Western powers, and that changed over time, which has changed things. The world we’re in now is so different. But going back to the '80s and the '90s, the changing dynamics... You were very involved in industrial relations and the economic development of Australia. How did those 25 years from the mid-'70s to 2000 unfold for you?

John Howard:
Well, there’s no doubt that the time I entered Parliament coincided with a huge upheaval in the world economy. You had the quadrupling of oil prices, the breakdown of the post-World War II fixed exchange rate regime, which had been established at Bretton Woods by Maynard Keynes and the Americans. It was a big shake-up economically. And domestically, something we now rightly take for granted, equal pay for women didn’t exist in the 1970s. And that had a huge economic impact.

There was a very big change in Australia too, because back then, even though both sides of politics now strenuously deny it, everyone agreed on a closed economy. They all believed in high tariff protection. They all believed in a fixed exchange rate. They believed in a centralised industrial relations system and didn’t want to change the tax system. Most people were suspicious of any idea of selling government assets. I noticed someone in Queensland is talking about the government opening up petrol service stations. I can’t think of anything more ludicrous. My dad had one for 30 years. My first job was serving petrol. I can’t believe anyone could possibly think that a government could run a service station. I mean, you’d have to be out of your mind. It’s a ridiculous idea.

Brett Kelly:
It’s a good question because today there’s growing talk of nationalising infrastructure in many Western democracies. There’s a rise of soft leftism, socialism, tending towards communism. These ideas of liberalising the economy, opening up economies, and world trade are being challenged. That’s a long journey from the '80s to today.
You were very involved as Treasurer.

John Howard:
There’s no doubt that the globalisation and liberalisation of the economy have been very beneficial. The greatest number of people lifted from poverty around the world since the Industrial Revolution has been in the last 30 or 40 years. And that’s the result of globalisation. Hundreds of millions of people in Asia now live what we would consider a lower-middle-class standard of living.
That’s still a long way below ours, and there are still a lot of people in Africa and parts of South America living in poverty, but nowhere near as much. I mean, it’s one of the problems I have with the climate change push. I think selling coal, iron ore, and gas to countries in Asia—if I were the Prime Minister of India, I’d want to get Australian coal, iron ore, and gas forever because it’s reliable and cheap. But now we’re trying to get out of it. But I’ll leave that.

Brett Kelly:
So, how do you lead on climate change if you're Prime Minister today?

John Howard:
No, I wouldn’t be Prime Minister today with the current agenda. I’m not saying I wouldn’t want to be, but I just don’t think people are ready for the kind of change that’s needed. I admire what Peter Dutton’s trying to do on nuclear power; I think it’s time has come. We have 38% of the world’s easily recoverable uranium reserves. We have some of the best-quality coal in the world. Now look, I’m kicking against the trend by saying all of that, but I’m a sceptic about the panic the world is in over climate change. I’m just not convinced. I could be wrong.

Brett Kelly:
Capitalism, you’re still a capitalist? It seems out of fashion.

John Howard:
Yeah, I’m a competitive capitalist. I think people are entitled to make as much money as their ability allows, providing they do it honestly and pay their fair share of tax. I don’t care. I mean, if people want to make money—good luck to them. And I think people who cheat or break the law while making money should be hit hard by the law. When I was Treasurer, I annoyed a lot of people by forcing those who thought tax was for other people to pay their share. I didn’t apologise for that because there are a lot of people who work very hard.

In spite of how hard my father worked in his small business... it was terrible. I mean, he spent all those years building a successful business, and at the end of it, the local council—dominated by the other side of politics—told him he had to remove his petrol pumps from the curbside because they wanted to put traffic lights there. No compensation, of course.

So, I can tell you, I never forgot that. Later on, when we were in government, whenever the role and position of small business came into focus, I was always on their side. Anyway, that’s beside the point.

Brett Kelly:
Defence—how do you think about Australia’s relationship with the US and our ability to defend ourselves?

John Howard:
I think AUKUS is great. It was the most important defence alliance Australia has entered into since World War II, after ANZUS. It just makes so much sense, and I’m very pleased that it happened while we were in government because even though the other side may have had some equivocation, they weren’t willing to voice that in opposition. I give full marks to Richard Marles and others for their support of AUKUS. I think it’s very genuine, and I hope they continue to maintain it.

Brett Kelly:
So, you saw your father live through World War I and the effects on him. How at risk do you think Australia is today? How febrile is the world now and at risk of a major conflict? How prepared do you think Australia is?

John Howard:
Well, I think Australia is still a very stable, peaceful, happy, and cohesive country. I think we’ve won the lottery of life to be born here or to immigrate here. I believe in immigration and a strong migrant flow, provided people who come here are absorbed into the mainstream of our community. I’ve always had a little bit of trouble with the notion of multiculturalism. I believe in diversity of background, but when everyone’s here, I’d like it all to blend into the mainstream.
I thought assimilation or integration, whatever we used to call it, worked well.

When I was growing up, if someone came to this country from elsewhere, they were called a New Australian. I never thought they were offended by that. I think it was the self-appointed experts who got offended by the term “New Australian.” I grew up in Earlwood, which was a very Anglo-Celtic suburb, and later, we had lots of Greek immigrants. They blended in—Italian boys went to the Catholic schools; Greeks went to the local public school. It just worked.
I don’t know why we started obsessing about their background. They didn’t want to be reminded of it. They were just happy to be part of Australia.

Brett Kelly:
So, how would you lead on that multicultural perspective?

John Howard:
It’s very hard. You get these ridiculous statements, like, “Multiculturalism is our national cement.” No, it’s not. I’d say things like equality of opportunity, a fair go—that’s our national cement. One of the great things about this country is that we have a good sense of balance. That’s why I called a book I wrote A Sense of Balance. To start with, we inherited a lot of British institutions—obviously, the language, rule of law, freedom of speech, parliamentary democracy, free media—and we embraced them. Thank heavens for that. They’re very good.
But we didn’t inherit or accept the class distinction or aristocracy. We got a good balance. Is it self-evident? I think it is. We should celebrate the contribution of people and our history to where we are now. This means we are a country that has embraced the good elements of our British inheritance but rejected the bad bits, and we’ve welcomed people from everywhere. But we shouldn’t feel the need to create a federation of tribes. That’s true in America too. I remember years ago reading a book called The Disuniting of America by Schlesinger, who’d been John Kennedy’s speechwriter.

And he worried that when he was growing up, people were conscious of their backgrounds, but now it’s being forced. It’s too much. I think we have a country now that’s overwhelmingly cohesive and united, and we shouldn’t emphasise our differences. We should celebrate the similarities. That’s my philosophy.

Effective Leadership

Brett Kelly:
Makes a lot of sense. Now, in terms of effective leadership, I saw a presentation you gave a number of years ago. Can you share the things that you think made you effective? We've noted that prime ministers since your time have struggled to stay in the job. What is it that made you such an effective leader?

John Howard:
Well, that’s not for me to say. Let me answer the question this way. I think, to be an effective leader—whether that’s in a political party, an army corps, a footy team, or whatever—you first and foremost need to make it very clear what you stand for. The insult I never minded was when someone would say, “I can’t stand John Howard. He’s terrible, but at least I know what he believes in.” And to me, that was a compliment.

I think we’ve got too many leaders in all sorts of fields, and you don’t have a clear idea of what they stand for. You can’t get people on side unless you make it clear what you stand for.

Failed political leaders, or leaders who think their golden rule is, “I’m not going to make any mistakes,” are doomed. And the person I admire most in history is Winston Churchill. Churchill made some terrible mistakes. A lot of Aussies thought his leadership of Gallipoli was a big mistake. He supported Edward VIII during the abdication crisis. He took Britain back onto the gold standard when it clearly shouldn’t have been done.

But here’s the thing—he got the big things right. He understood that the real threat in the 1930s was the rise of Nazism in Germany. And Germany was the real threat. The rest of the world called him a warmonger, but he knew what was coming.

I only discovered recently that not long before he became prime minister, moves were underway in one of the branches of his constituency to take away the Conservative Party’s endorsement of him. What caught my eye was that the branch was in Epping. I had an Epping branch in my electorate, so it kind of stood out. He got the big things right, and that’s what you have to do. You’re going to make mistakes as a leader, but you’ve got to get the big things right. And he certainly did. Of course, he also provided inspiring leadership.

You’ve also got to understand that communicating with the people around you is crucial. I watched two prime ministers be replaced while I was out of office. One from each side—Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott. Tony is a dear friend of mine; I like him a lot.

But in their own ways, both must have failed to communicate effectively with those around them. When Kevin Rudd beat me, he had a huge majority. I thought he’d be there for ages, but he was gone within two and a half years. I thought that was a silly thing for the Labor Party to have done. Then the same thing happened with Abbott.

When I was prime minister, no matter how well or poorly I was going, I was always available to spend time with my parliamentary colleagues. If they had a complaint, they could see me within a couple of days, or even sooner.

So, you just have to understand that the relationship with people immediately around you is the most important one. Having a very clear view of what you stand for is also critical. You’ve got to get the big things right. I keep coming back to Churchill. He made plenty of mistakes. He didn’t want the Indians to have independence, heaven help us.

Brett Kelly:
So, what were the biggest things you think you got right during your time as prime minister?

John Howard:
Well, I think one thing I’m still regularly reminded of is the gun laws. I get stopped in the street all the time by people—mostly men, but not just women—saying, “Gee, you got that right.” I remember just after I brought in those gun laws, I was walking down the street in Sydney, and a lady came up to me and said, “I’ve never voted for you, and I never would. I wouldn’t vote for you if my life depended on it,” and I said, “Oh, yeah?”

But then she said, “But you got the guns right.” And that, for me, was a bit of a metaphor for the issue. People just felt it was terrible that one lunatic could kill 35 people. That gun that was allegedly used in the Trump shooting incident—apparently bought under his father’s name, so I read—was the sort of weapon you couldn’t get here in Australia.

Now, that’s a culture in America I don’t think they’ll ever change, but we had the opportunity to do something about it. I have to say, I had a lot of support from the National Party—Tim Fischer, John Anderson, and Mark Vaile.

And also, to be fair, a lot of support from the Labor Party, even when they weren’t in power. Bob Carr, the Premier of New South Wales, was supportive. But I had a lot of resistance within my own ranks because it affected a lot of farmers. People said, “Well, this is a bit harsh. We’ve got these guns, but we lock them up and look after them.”

In the end, we had to ban them all. But that was a big thing. Tax reform was huge as well. Waterfront reform—that was massive. It was one of the toughest, with a lot of violence involved. Peter Reith, who’s now sadly passed away, was the minister, and he was terrific. He really achieved something.

Everyone had talked about fixing the waterfront, but nothing ever happened. In the end, Reith and I, along with Chris Corrigan, the courageous businessman, decided something had to be done—and we did it.

Although the Maritime Union (or the old Waterside Workers Federation) is still around, the bad work practices that crippled our export trade have largely gone. Though some have crept back since, as subsequent Labor governments have rolled over when it comes to dealing with the union.

I’ve always thought Bob Hawke was the best Labor prime minister we’ve had in this country, I’ll stress the adjective.

Brett Kelly:
What’s the one thing you’d like to have achieved that you didn’t?

John Howard:
Win the 2007 election. In politics, there’s not a lot you can do, although you can still achieve things from opposition. I supported a lot of things the Labor Party did when they were in government because they were sensible. We didn’t get that favour returned. I mean, when the public voted for the GST in ’98, the Labor Party should’ve accepted it and moved on. Instead, they kept opposing it.

I did the same thing with Medicare. I was a constant critic of Medicare in opposition. But after the 1993 election, I wasn’t leader at the time, but I said to my colleagues, “Look, the public likes Medicare. It gives assurance, especially to women with young children. We just have to accept it whether we like it or not.”

Brett Kelly:
So, do you think that willingness to listen to the electorate is important?

John Howard:
Oh, I think it’s fundamental. You’ve got to strike a balance between appearing like you’ll change your principles just to win votes and being sensible. On health policy, there’d been a long-running debate about Medibank, which eventually morphed into Medicare. It’s fundamentally what we still have today, and I think it works better than most. If you think our system is bad, try being sick in America when you don’t have any money.

Brett Kelly:
Yeah, you can't get healthcare. The average person really struggles to access it there.

John Howard:
That’s right. And the NHS in Britain, while it’s a great idea, is far too bureaucratic for my liking. But I understand it; it’s their way of trying to ensure people are taken care of. But, at the end of the day, if you’re really sick and have no money, our public hospital system looks after you—and, by and large, our public hospitals are excellent.

Rising above public scrutiny and political challenges

Brett Kelly:
Now, you had that great nickname—Lazarus with a triple bypass. How did you keep going through all the public scrutiny and political challenges?

John Howard:
Well, it’s much like coffee, I suppose—it’s a part of the routine. Sure, some issues were tough, but the hardest bit was getting there in the first place. My first go in federal politics was in 1987, when I led the party against Bob Hawke. We lost. After that, I was tipped out as leader because they didn’t think I could win. It wasn’t a pleasant time, but I accepted it. Then, after a few more defeats, on the principle of “the last man standing,” they brought me back. And I was determined not to mess that up.

There were tough moments, but my family was always close. We still are. My three kids were involved, even if some of them didn’t always agree with me on everything. But my wife, Janette, was a great support—a fantastic character assessor. She always kept me grounded.

Brett Kelly:
Looking at the world today, especially with the upcoming US election, how do you see things unfolding?

John Howard:
I find it impossible to predict. I’m glad I don’t have a vote. Normally, I’d have no problem supporting a sensible Republican candidate, but right now, I really don’t know what will happen. If it ends up being a contest between Trump and Kamala Harris, I’d find it difficult. Normally, I wouldn’t consider voting for someone like Harris, but my problem with Trump is that he failed the democracy test. He didn’t accept the umpire’s decision.

Brett Kelly:
The cricket test.

John Howard:
Exactly. Trump didn’t seem to believe in democracy. He believed in political terrorism. I thought Biden was obviously incapable. The big lesson we’ve learnt from what’s happening in America is, thank heavens we have a parliamentary system. Trump would never have made it to the top of the Republican Party in a parliamentary system. No way. And Biden would’ve been tapped on the shoulder years ago and told to step down.

Brett Kelly:
So you have strong hopes for the US system?

John Howard:
Well, I think it’ll survive, but I can’t see them changing it. America has had some great presidents in the past, and I thought Ronald Reagan was a great one. So was Harry Truman. But, I don’t know what will happen next. The American system just isn’t set up for a peer review process like ours. We’ve got a better system, by far.

We’ve just seen a change of government in Britain. It wasn’t ideal, but it was done with civility. Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer were polite, and they both believed in the system. That’s the difference between our system and theirs.

Brett Kelly:
It’s good to be Australian, then!

John Howard:
It is. We’ve inherited a better political system. You could have either a republic or a monarchy with our system, but the key is that it works. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Brett Kelly:
Well, I’ve suggested to a few American friends that, if they keep behaving this way, they might need the king back. He couldn’t do a worse job, after all!

John Howard:
(Laughs) I had a funny moment with George Bush at the 2007 APEC summit in Sydney. We were at Government House, and I was trying to show him a picture of George III. I wanted to get a photo with him in front of the portrait. He looked at it and said, “What are you doing, John?” Then he realised who it was and said, “That’s him, isn’t it?” I said, “Yes.” And he said, “No, let’s go.”

Brett Kelly:
Thanks so much for your time today.

John Howard:
Thank you, Brett. I really appreciate it.

--End of transcript--